Are new winsurfing developments possible?

After witnessing the winging onslaught in the San Francisco Bay Area I have started to wonder if it might be possible to imporve our beloved "fins". What I think is good about winging is its free-ride appeal. It is slow, but it is also easy and it has a large wind range. It would seem that windsurf development got stuck somehow into high performance ... great, fast, extreme but still with limited range and very hard to handle. Is there something that can be done bring in some new ground braking development?

Maybe fins? Almost by chance I have been playing with very large fins set up with my FSW 90. 25 + 11 sides. with 5.4. That is quite massive at my weight but I am surprised by the increased uptake in upwind and low end. I loose about 1 knot of top speed, but my range of use is larger.

So, retractable fins? Dagger boards are retractable, is there a way to have fin boxes that do the same? Maybe just for the sides?

Hybrid foil-fins? Yes, they disappeared quick, but that might be because they did not show any advantage in racing conditions. Could they work as freeride range extender devices?

Board shapes? A modern 95 can handle the same wind of on old (say pre-2010) 85. Is there something more to do. Shorter, longer, wider in the tail ... whatever! Or shape shifting? Is it so hard to make a board tail that can change shape while sailing?

OR SOMETHING ELSE. I am no engineer. ANYTHING to make windsurfing EASIER AND RANGIER?

Put all the fins on it you want, nothing is going to make a planing board ride open ocean swell or get through lulls like a foil.

I guess the Windsurfer LT / One Design is close to what you ask. One setup that works in a large range of conditions. People are enjoying it. It's not for me though.

Depending on where you live, you can probably get away with one board and two sails on the same mast/boom. You'll compromise a bit but it will be less of a hassle, cheaper, and makes you a better sailor. Not even talking about the "what should I rig" dilemma :D We all started with one rig and board. Then we couldn't get going in lower wind's while others were flying so needed a bigger sail etc.

Retractable fins or other "high" tech would not make the sport more accessible, probably makes it worse as it would be more expensive and not even talking about the maintenance hassle of something like that.

I think you should see wind foiling and more particularly wing foiling as an evolution of windsurfing. Admittedly winging is much more accessible (transport, rigging, range, learning) than windsurfing although I still enjoy the fin so will keep windsurfing.

So my take is that windsurfing is fully developed. There will be small things like auto adjustable extensions recently and some trends like stubby noses or we might go back to long and narrow for a few years just because brands need to change something in order to sell gear.

There's probably no incentive for any brand outside the Windsurfer LT to design a board and sail that works in all conditions as they would sell less as a result.
If people want that, they can buy the LT.

Electric motor assist would seem like the thing everything else has going on.

Just enough to keep the forward momentum on those superlight days or kick you onto the plane on the marginal days ?

Foot button on the deck / push button on the boom or flow sensor in the hull to make it automatic ?

Motor integrated into the board jetski style, so no extra drag from a propellor ?

Must be able to fit an e-foil motor to a fin and give it a go ? Surely somebody has done it ?

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duzzi said..

Subsonic said..

Grantmac said..
Put all the fins on it you want, nothing is going to make a planing board ride open ocean swell or get through lulls like a foil.

Just as equally, nothing is going to make a wing foil ride the wave tops fast like a planing board.

most people fall into windsports because they know someone that already does it. I think the best thing we can do for the sport is "teach a friend". One of the few things windsurfing has going for it over the newer windsports is theres a plethora of second hand equipment available for next to no money. Sure the new gear might be expensive comparatively, but ask a winger if they've got any gear theyd be willing to part with so a friend can get into it. They don't yet, because the sport is still too fresh.

A debate fin vs foil is a for a different thread (gasp!) another debate?). I would like NEW IDEAS to make windsurf EASIER AND RANGIER. Nothing has really happened since around 2008-2010. (Windsurf LT is great, but it is not new by any means, and it is border line unusable in a place like the SF Bay Area. If that is an example of "fully developed" we are a bit in trouble)

Well sorry but your opening comments kind of inspired the debate. Windsurfing has been through a number of iterations and alterations in the past. If you want to inspire new comers it seems these days what you need to provide is instant and easy gratification, but windsurfing was never that. Its meant to be challenging.


i'm not sure what you're hoping is going to be achieved through re design, but examining the relatively brief history of windsports you'll see that each sport has had its turn as the "new fad" i think windsurfing is probably fairing relatively well all in all. People are still getting into it.

At my local we get people using all types of equipment. First on the water are the kite foilers. They only need 6 to 8 kts to get flying. The wing dings and windfoilers are next when the wind starts to gust over 10 kts. The rump of kiters and windsurfers join the fun when the wind starts gusting over 15 kts. The windsurfers mainly use bump and jump gear in the 1m high wind swell with max sail sizes of 7.5. The windsurfers get out about every 3rd or 4th session that the foilers get out. I can't see any gear advancements that would change this ratio.

The big change of lately is the transition by wing foilers to downwind foiling. They get out as soon as there is some wind blown swell.

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Mr Milk said..

duzzi said..
After witnessing the winging onslaught in the San Francisco Bay Area I have started to wonder if it might be possible to imporve our beloved "fins". What I think is good about winging is its free-ride appeal. It is slow, but it is also easy and it has a large wind range. It would seem that windsurf development got stuck somehow into high performance ... great, fast, extreme but still with limited range and very hard to handle. Is there something that can be done bring in some new ground braking development?

You think it's easier to wingfoil than to ride a sailboard? It certainly doesn't look easier.
My local sailing buddy took it up last season and tells me that it requires constant brain engagement, much more than windsurfing does where we sail. That's Huskisson on Jervis Bay, where the chop gets pretty big.

I have no interest in debating. I only windsurf. I just noticed that in a place with lots of wind winging has come to dominate 95% of the presences, and I wonder what can be done to increase the appeal of windsurfing. Again. THINK. Don't say it cannot be done or does not need to be done! What technological innovations can change windsurf for the better? I like the idea of a small electrical jet engine. What else (with no engine).

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duzzi said..
After witnessing the winging onslaught in the San Francisco Bay Area I have started to wonder if it might be possible to imporve our beloved "fins". What I think is good about winging is its free-ride appeal. It is slow, but it is also easy and it has a large wind range. It would seem that windsurf development got stuck somehow into high performance ... great, fast, extreme but still with limited range and very hard to handle. Is there something that can be done bring in some new ground braking development?

Maybe fins? Almost by chance I have been playing with very large fins set up with my FSW 90. 25 + 11 sides. with 5.4. That is quite massive at my weight but I am surprised by the increased uptake in upwind and low end. I loose about 1 knot of top speed, but my range of use is larger.

So, retractable fins? Dagger boards are retractable, is there a way to have fin boxes that do the same? Maybe just for the sides?

Hybrid foil-fins? Yes, they disappeared quick, but that might be because they did not show any advantage in racing conditions. Could they work as freeride range extender devices?

Board shapes? A modern 95 can handle the same wind of on old (say pre-2010) 85. Is there something more to do. Shorter, longer, wider in the tail ... whatever! Or shape shifting? Is it so hard to make a board tail that can change shape while sailing?

OR SOMETHING ELSE. I am no engineer. ANYTHING to make windsurfing EASIER AND RANGIER?

From my experience since i started windsurfing in 2007.

For me the best upgrade were the sails in these last years.

All modern sails have a huge wind range, for example, 10 years ago the wind range was very small compared to now
Another big upgrade i have been watching are the fins, every 2 or 3 years the fin get better
Some shape boards are getting better but the construction i think is getting worse and more fragil

But of course with all the money been thrown to wingfoil the development of windsurf gear slowed down so for the next years i think we will only see some small upgrades specially in the brands that have windsurf and wingfoil, even some brands are getting rid of windsurf team riders to support more wingfoil riders

In my spot we are also watching the boom of wings with the number of windsurf and kiters going down.

Very sad to watch for a 100% dedicated fin windsurfer!!

The "Tinkler Tail" is an adjustable tail section. Invented in the late '60s for surfboards and applied to windsurfing in the '80s. Rear foot pressure adds rocker for waveriding and the rocker goes away when you head back out. You can use springs of different strengths to tune the feature. Very popular on fiberglass/polyester boards at big wave spots in the '80s, and Mistral came out with a not very popular production version.

Reefable sails such as Multisail have also been tried, and so have retractable fins.

In all these cases you add versatility at the expense of weight and complexity. But I don't think that's the big problem. I think the big problem is that systemically we LIKE having a lot of stuff, and having to choose which is best optimized for the day, and "having" to come in and switch gear when a board is too big or a sail too small. It's our spouses and significant others who don't like it.

I'm a decent golfer (8hcp) and know that I score almost exactly the same when I carry 9 clubs as when I carry the maximum 14, but in a competition I'll always carry 14.

As someone that's recently started windsurfing I think there are quite a few barriers to entry - these probably also exist for winging to some degree. I'm not sure that further technological developments are the main issue.

1) Cost. I spent around $4k getting set up from roofracks/wetsuit/board/sail etc. I can afford it now, but one of the reason I didn't get into the sport when I was younger was there was no way I could justify that.

2) Classes are hard to find. There weren't any classes running that I could find at this time of year. I think some of the clubs run "junior" training but I'm 50 and would feel like Kramer in the karate class.

3) Classes are expensive - $200/hr.

4) Not that many shops locally

5) Too many different types of boards/ sails /masts etc. Its like building a PC from scratch - lots of ways you could end up with the wrong gear that doesn't fit or isn't suitable. Took me ages to read through forums and other posts before deciding what I needed. Even then I took the advice of the guys in the shop that know what they are doing.

Any of these could put someone off getting started. If there was a regular place you could just turn up and rent a board to give it a go for say $50 - and get a few tips, I think that would bring a lot more people into the sport. Also need to really try and get the younger generation into it - like they do with sailing. This isn't profitable in the short term, but keeps the sport growing in the long term.

And all of that compares with mobile gaming...

My Windtechs have an adjustable tail for comfort and to extend the range and control. Unfortunately he doesn't make them any more.
I don't know why this hasn't sold. Cheap as chips..fast , exhilarating, super comfy and safe / controllable in chop. Fantastic fun doing bearaways in chop and they kill it going upwind- planing or subplaning.
www.seabreeze.com.au/Classifieds/Windsurfing-Boards/~kpsxt/2019-WindTech-Silver-Bullet-257-cm-90-litres.aspx?_page=1&search=0BZmezxV2puL8xf0vkBgnapXtUTF8zZC

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sboardcrazy said..
My Windtechs have an adjustable tail for comfort and to extend the range and control. Unfortunately he doesn't make them any more.
I don't know why this hasn't sold. Cheap as chips..fast , exhilarating, super comfy and safe / controllable in chop. Fantastic fun doing bearaways in chop and they kill it going upwind- planing or subplaning.
www.seabreeze.com.au/Classifieds/Windsurfing-Boards/~kpsxt/2019-WindTech-Silver-Bullet-257-cm-90-litres.aspx?_page=1&search=0BZmezxV2puL8xf0vkBgnapXtUTF8zZC

Same board as in my profile pic.

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mmilhazes said..

From my experience since i started windsurfing in 2007.

For me the best upgrade were the sails in these last years.

All modern sails have a huge wind range, for example, 10 years ago the wind range was very small compared to now

There must have been some changes in the definition of "wind range", because we've been told that "modern sails have a bigger wind range" almost continually since the mid '80s, and yet sailmakers STILL tell us we need about the same number of sails, or even more. In the 1990 F2 catalogue, for example, the whole wind range was supposedly covered with three or four sails for each discipline. A World Cup pro of the '80s had about (if I recall correctly) five or six sails for each discipline across the whole wind range. Now a typical sailmaker is selling 5-7 sails across the wind range, for a far higher number of disciplines and sub-disciplines.

The sport started out with just one sail that could be used from zero to 20+ knots. Now we're told that we need multiple sails to cover a 20 knot range.

In some windsurfer racing classes the entire range is still covered with one or two sails, and in many boats that sail across a wider range of conditions the entire range is covered with one sail. Some of that is down to the physics of windsurfing, but compared to many other small sailing craft, or to past windsurfers, most modern windsurfer sails actually have a very narrow wind range by many measures.

So there's clearly room to improve wind range, and I bet sailmakers could do it pretty easily IF we changed the way we look at wind range. If we want to be able to blast around, judging ourselves by top-end reaching speed against those who use a whole bunch of sails and we refuse to use sails that require adjustable downhauls etc or load up our back hand, then we're inherently asking for narrow wind ranges. If we change our criteria, we can have far simpler gear.

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Carantoc said..
Electric motor assist would seem like the thing everything else has going on.

Just enough to keep the forward momentum on those superlight days or kick you onto the plane on the marginal days ?

Foot button on the deck / push button on the boom or flow sensor in the hull to make it automatic ?

Motor integrated into the board jetski style, so no extra drag from a propellor ?

Must be able to fit an e-foil motor to a fin and give it a go ? Surely somebody has done it ?

That's an extra $6k or so added to each windsurfer judging from the costs of the other electric foilers, isn't it?

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PhilUK said..
I think most brand's wave sails go up in approx 0.3/0.4m increments. Its up to the buyer to decide on what sails they buy. My smaller sails are 4.5, 5.2, 6m. I used to have 4.0, 4.5, 5.0, 5.7.
For larger sails, I now have 6.5, 7.5 & 8.5. Ezzy do have 7.0 & 8.0 but I dont need them.
Some brands have kept the 0.7/0.8m increments, but I think the range from each has gone up so you dont need to change up or down so often. I generally sail for 1.5 hours on average and its rare to change sails during a session.

So as a typical keen sailor you have six sails. That doesn't seem to indicate any significant change over the decades. Back many years ago, it was common among people doing pro events here to have probably six sails to cover the wind range across waves and course racing, often using the same big course racing sails to sail in course events with no bottom wind limit on 12'9" boards. We'd have fewer sails at the world champs for slalom and course racing - two to three sails per discipline was common, IIRC.

So it was quite common to have two to three sails per discipline to cover the entire wind range for that discipline - and that was a racing setup for chasing around Robby and Bjorn. If the wind range had increased substantially over the decades people would now be doing PWA events with far fewer than three sails per discipline, and yet that's not happening. PWA sailors these days are allowed seven sails, which is actually more than pros used 40 years ago. That cannot be happening if sail ranges are increasing.

In the other types of craft I sail, from a Laser to a fast Formula 18 cat to a 36' yacht, we go from zero to 25 knots or so with no sail changes, apart from changing to a heavier spinnaker if racing the yacht. In Mistrals, Div 2 boards and Windsurfers we never changed sails, or did so about once a year.

As I tried to make clear, I completely understand why people choose to have lots of sails and as you said it's up to the buyer, but the point is that the claim "modern sails have wider wind ranges" has been made for decades on end and yet there seems to be no evidence that it's really happening, or that modern windsurf sails have a wide range compared to other sails.

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duzzi said..

Subsonic said..

Grantmac said..
Put all the fins on it you want, nothing is going to make a planing board ride open ocean swell or get through lulls like a foil.

Just as equally, nothing is going to make a wing foil ride the wave tops fast like a planing board.

most people fall into windsports because they know someone that already does it. I think the best thing we can do for the sport is "teach a friend". One of the few things windsurfing has going for it over the newer windsports is theres a plethora of second hand equipment available for next to no money. Sure the new gear might be expensive comparatively, but ask a winger if they've got any gear theyd be willing to part with so a friend can get into it. They don't yet, because the sport is still too fresh.

A debate fin vs foil is a for a different thread (gasp!) another debate?). I would like NEW IDEAS to make windsurf EASIER AND RANGIER. Nothing has really happened since around 2008-2010. (Windsurf LT is great, but it is not new by any means, and it is border line unusable in a place like the SF Bay Area. If that is an example of "fully developed" we are a bit in trouble)

I haven't sailed SF Bay much, but I've done a lot of sailing in places that are (according to SF locals who have done world champs in both places) just as rough and windy, like Port Phillip Bay at Melbourne. We can also tell from looking at other boats sailing on SF Bay how windy it is, and it's really not that hairy at the standard windsurfing locations. We were there a few months ago when St F YC cancelled the twilight racing, and it wasn't any stronger than a good day in much of Australia.

An LT can handle such conditions very easily, if sailed with the right technique. It's nothing close to "border line unusable". A good sailor could be coming into the beach at Chrissy Field or wherever and throwing duck gybes with an LT, just as we do in the open ocean in strong winds. Heck, people used to race across the Bay with wooden wishbones and wooden daggerboards.

That is also judging the bay area by its windiest part, and that is a huge problem for our sport IMHO. We define it by the 'extreme' end of the sport. It's as if cycling in the Bay area was seen as only downhill MTBing, or only road cyclists going up and down Mt Diablo or Mt Tamalpais. If cycling defined itself in such a narrow way, it would be far less popular than it is.

We could develop boards that could be easier and rangier for sailing even at Chrissy Field etc. However, they would be slower than the current gear when it comes to reaching back and for in planing conditions because of the inherent compromises, and there's the rub. While we give the sport its current narrow definition, we can't really change it very much. If we gave up this narrow definition, there are vast changes we could do, but most people dislike the change.